This
page contains one note:
LeStrange/Strange/Strang/Stronge/Strong
DNA Study Note #9:
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The subject of this note is a discussion of certain aspects
of the DNA Study as it relates to
"The Strongs of Virginia and the Southern United States", here referred to as the “Southern” Group:
Refer to: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/dnaresults.htm for presentation of information relating to the Kits discussed here. (5 kits): I am speculating a bit here... but given a certain amount of genetic drift, these kits seem to have several points of convergence... some closer than others. If my speculation is correct, we may have an indication here that "brickwalls" for kits #6436 and #6809 may have some "cracks" in them. The lineages involved may have all originated in Virginia... but then again, they may also have common ancestry with the members of Group Southwest England further back in Britain. Note, I said "Britain"; there are some similarities between all of the remaining groups. They are all members of Haplogroup HG1, also now known as Rb1, and could be either from England or Scotland.
Please also see Note #9 in connection with the overall relationship of the subject kit #6809 to the rest of the Southern Strong Lineage Grouping.
It is well documented the New England Strong descendants of Elder John Strong can trace their lineage back an additional two or three generations into Southwest England. (Elder John came from Dorsetshire, in the southwest of England). It is further believed the Southern Strongs descend from John Strong of New Kent County, Virginia; this is as distinguished from a separate line descended from Edward Strong of Norfolk, VA. See Note #4.
From the paper genealogical studies, it has been unclear whether Edward Strong was a "Southern" Strong; and/or a descendant of another colonist from England. It seems clearer as time and the DNA Study progresses that the Norfolk Strongs are a separate lineage. Kit #7036 represents the "Norfolk" lineage descending from Edward Strong of Norfolk, Virginia. #7036 seems to have a relationship of some kind to the Southern group; however, that relationship may be far back in time, before a "genealogically relevant era". Indeed, if one looks at Kit #6809, it is possible to theorize that the participant may descend from the same lineage as Kit #7036, given some mutation.
There is an additional hypothesis that John Strong of New Kent County emigrated to Virginia from England, as did most of the early colonists in Virginia. However, there seems to be little or no information indicating WHERE in England he may have come from. The leading hypothesis is that he came from the southwest of England. If so, he probably ultimately sprang from the same genetic stock as did "Elder" John Strong of New England. Unfortunately, there are few records which have been tied together regarding the various Strongs of the early 17th Century. There is no documentary evidence currently available to establish any linkage. That may leave us trying to prove or disprove a relationship through analysis of DNA evidence. While we are developing some evidence from the DNA study, the proper interpretation of that evidence is still in a development stage.
Note the insertion of two new columns in the presentation, entitled "Known MRCA" and "Speculative MRCA". Links are provided to a new page containing an experimental presentation of data, probabilities, and estimates re both Known and Speculative Most Recent Common Ancestor's for certain members of the "Southern" group, amongst other groups. I invite your review and comments as to the effectiveness of the presentation, and whether we can correct or improve the contents or presentation of the MRCA analyses.
We needed some expert input re the relationships between these groups, and found it in the discussions mentioned below:
In his message of March 3, 2003, in response to a request for advice, Dennis Garvey comments "I'm afraid as things stand it does look like a bit of a stretch to believe that all the Southern members are related. #6436 especially stands out as a "bad fit". That leaves the other three as possibly differing at 1-3
steps from a presumed ancestral haplotype (which might look like #5834 except with DYS385a=11). That would be believable. Testing a few more from that group would give you more info." Based in part on Garvey's comments, I have made the following additional analysis: Kit #5834's closest matches are all members of the SOUTHERN group. The report below indicates #5834 is just ONE step (in the first 12) removed from #6663 and 6436; however the distance increases in the full 25 marker results:
Genetic Distance Analysis: kit #5834
A distance of 0 is an exact match, 1 is a single step mutation, etc…
12 Marker Analysis:
| Kit | Name | Distance |
| 6436 : | : | 1 |
| 6663: | : | 1 |
| 6809 : | : | 3 |
| Kit | Name | Distance |
| 6809 : | : | 3 |
| 6663: | : | 4 |
| 6436 : | : | 6 |
| KIT# | and: | DYS 458 | DYS 455 | DYS447 |
| #5834 | : | 17 | 11 | 26 |
| #6663 | : | 16 | 12 | 25 |
| #6436 | : | 17 | 11 | 25 |
| #6809 | : | 17 | 11 | 25 |
DYS 458 is one of the fast moving markers... and #6663 is the only one in the four Southern kits who doesn't match #5834... probably #6663's line has mutated here.
DYS 455 #6663 has the ONLY value of 12 in the whole study so far... again, mutation seems to have occurred.
DYS 447 This marker presents difficulties in analysis. The only way seems to be to gain more test results from other participants. It is one marker that seems to have some point of variance in it that happened way back in time for some kits in the whole study, yet if #5834 and #6663 are related, it must have happened since John Strong of New Kent County's generation.
Picking up with Dennis Garvey's comments re kit #6436, I note that the points of difference from the other kits in the Southern Group are:
| KIT# | and: | DYS 459b | DYS 449 | DYS464d |
| #6436 | : | 9 | 30 | 19 |
| #South | : | 10 | 29 | 18 |
DYS 449 is a fast moving marker. Maybe Dennis Garvey's comments about being "forgiving" apply here.
DYS 464d is also a fast moving marker. The "Kinney" calculation webpage suggests that the total difference is 1 step on the 464 markers... but again, may we be doubly forgiving?
DYS 459b may be the stickler. This could be a new mutation... or a differentiating marker.
I am also somewhat concerned about the lack of a match on Kit #6809 in DYS 390 and (DYS 389-2 minus 389-1).
We now have results from kit #8314 to add to the presentation of results. The results seem to point in the direction of resolving the differnces between kit #5834 and #6663 by showing a 24/25 match with the "Assumed Southern Haplotype"; which in turn facilitates the MRCA analyses.
Lacking exact matches (there are two 24/25 matches, one for the line of Elder John Strong of Massachusetts and another for the line of John Strong, Sr. of Virginia), one must engage in probability studies based on mutation rates. That being the case, we are very fortunate to have an Administrator of the studywho has shown a willingness and ability to grapple with the complexities of MRCA ("Most Recent Common Ancestor") analysis when there are no exact matches. But, such analysis requires more data than we currently have.
The purpose of this message is to recruit more participants for the study. While I think (our DNA Study Coordinator) believes the study will ultimately support the theory that some of the lines have a common ancestor, I have reservations; instead, I'm gradually coming to the conclusion that the lasting importance of this study may be to establish DNA profiles for the various Strong lines that have been the subject of research, so that Strongs who cannot connect through the research might connect through their DNA. My interest is the line of John Strong, Sr. of Virginia, so I wish to make a special appeal for more participants from that line. Thus far, we have only three known descendants enrolled, represented by Kits 5834 (John Sr.>William>James), 6663 (John Sr.>William>Thomas) and 8314 (John Sr.>John Jr.). Kits 5834 and 8314 are a 24/25 match, with the one mismatch being at marker 339, which is known to have a "rapid" mutation rate. Since Kit 5834 is the odd man out for this marker, that suggests Kit 8314 represents the haplotype or DNA profile for the line of John Strong, Sr. of Virginia.
However, there are some anomalies. It is surprising to find that Kits 5834 and 6663, both of which show a line of descent through John Sr.'s son William, are only a 21/25 match, which is not considered to be genealogically significant. Mutation analysis may suggest these kits are possibly closer to a 23/25 match, which seems to be the minimum accepted as genealogically significant. Note that Kits 6663 and 8314 are a 22/25 match, which mutation analysis may also increase to a 23/25 match. In summary, my reading of the results to date is that Kits 5834 and 8314 share a common ancestor and that Kit 6663 probably shares the same ancestor if one makes allowances for "rapidly" mutating markers.
More participants would be helpful in at least two ways. They might confirm that Kit 8314 represents the true haplotype and has not itself been subject to mutations. (Dave speculates there may have been a mutation at marker 447, which would result in a 24/25 match for 8314, a 23/25 match for 5834 and a 23/25 match for 6663; with allowances for rapidly mutating markers, all three might be viewed as 24/25 matches with the true haplotype.) If Kit 8314 turns out to represent the true haplotype, additional participants might help bridge the gap between Kits 5834 and 6663 and provide a better framework for mutation analysis.
If my line is at all representative, the number of direct male descendants of John Sr. of Virginia may be dwindling. If you are a direct male descendant, please consider joining the study in order to help establish the haplotype for our line for all posterity. The home page for the study is
"http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/dnastudy.htm" .
Please review the webpages and consider joining the study.
Robert Strong
"My Line of Southern Strongs"
"http://azstrong.tripod.com/harry_alice"
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