Some Selected Reports from The Windsor and Eton Express
11th March 1837
Lectures on Scripture History
- The Rev. Mr. Stoughton having announced to his congregation , on Saturday last, his intention of giving a series of Lectures on Scripture History, the first to be delivered on Tuesday evening, in the Schoolhouse of the
of his Chapel in William-street, on that evening the very capacious room was crowded with hearers, so much so [�], that many persons could not obtain accommodation [�.]. Mr Stoughton promised, that in consequence of the
great number of persons who were then present, his next Lecture, which would be in about a month, should be delivered in the Chapel. The Rev. Gentleman then proceeded with his subject, which he stated he had long had at heart, and
at length had come to the determination of Lecturing upon it. The Lecture was listened to by the audience with the most profound attention, and seemed to afford the greatest possible satisfaction. The subject was one which could not have fallen
into abler hands than those of Mr.Stoughton , who displayed not only (as might of course be expected from his station) the most intimate knowledge of the sacred writings, but deep research among the Records of dead and living authors,
whose facts and opinions were introduced by way of illustration.
The Cameleon
- Her Majesty has been pleased to intimate to Mr. Tarver, the editor of this very useful and extensively circulating French periodical her admiration of it, and her intention to patronize it in future.
About a month since a wheat rick, in the farm yard of Mr.Winder, of Oakley Green, fell down, and, as was afterwards ascertained, buried two fine turkies, which it was conjectured were killed. On Thursday last, however,
on reaching the bottom of the fallen rick , which had been leisurely lowered, to the great surprise of the labourers, both turkies were found to be alive, and are now as well as ever they were.
On Wednesday last Francis Saunders, of Clewer, better known as Brick Saunders, was convicted before Edmund Foster, Esq, of stealing turnips from Mr. Hughes farm, at Clewer Sande's having been before convicted of a similar offence, the
Magistrate sentenced him to six months imprisonment and labour at the County House of Correction.
Vestry Minutes
On Thursday afternoon a Vestry Meeting of the Rate-payers of the parish of New Windsor was convened, "for the purpose of considering and determining on the renewed security to be given to Mrs. Elizabeth Jenks, for the repayment of the sum of �3000, and interest, charged on the Church-rates
of this parish". The Rev. Isaac Gosset, the Vicar, upon taking the chair, asked if any person had any communication to make to the Vestry !
The Town Clerk said that Mr. Legh (one of the late Churchwardens) had communicated to Mrs. Jenks's solicitor what had passed at the last Vestry, and that gentleman, his client having determined on consenting to renew the mortgage, had sent a draft of the mortgage deed,
which he (the Town Clerk) produced. The Town Clerk then read the draft of this deed, which provided for the continuation of the mortgage for three years longer, the money being secured on the Church-rates.
Mr.Barton said that the document purported to be a fresh mortgage on the rates, which were already exhausted. There was now an end to the rates, as far as Mrs. Jenks was concerned, and to the extent of those past rates there would be a good security.
Mr. Cook said it should be enquired, whether the Churchwardens, being recommended to enter into the security, could make a rate to be applied for paying it off. From the decisions he had seen in the newspapers he confessed
he had his doubts on the subject, but the Town Clerk, who was a good authority , could inform them upon that point.
The Town Clerk said he did not draw up the deed; it was done by Mrs.Jenks's solicitor, who, he presumed must have considered the security sufficient.
Mr. Cook: But if certain parties enter into an arrangement to pay the money, and they find afterwards that they cannot make a rate, what a situation they would be in.
Mr. Batcheldor: But you have nothing to substitute for it. We owe �3000, and you now have to decide how you will discharge it. The mortgagee is satisfied with this security, and is it not a question for her solicitor to consider.
Mr. Cook: No, it is for us to consider. As is said sometimes, it is a "thimble rig" sort of affair. If you do as you propose we cannot execute it; I will put it to the Town Clerk.
Town Clerk : If it is put to me, whether I would advise the Churchwardens to execute the deed, I would say no - under present circumstances. The deed, if it does anything, transfers the responsibility to somebody, and that somebody would be the new security - (a cry "Who would that be".)
Mr. Legh : The parish at large.
Town Clerk: No; it would be the Churchwardens.
Mr Batcheldor: Since it comes to this we must do something
Mr.Cook said it was certain it would not be believed that he threw a stumbling-block in the way of settling this question, because at the last Vestry he was the person to propose the renewal of the mortgage - [hear,hear]; - but
, and which stated that rates for the future could not be raised to pay past debts.
Mr.Batcheldor said it was not quite so clear. It was clear that Churchwardens could not make a rate to pay past debts, but this debt was incurred under an Act of Parliament which authorised the Churchwardens to borrow money.
The question now was whether they were not empowered to continue the mortgage under the Act of Parliament.
Mr Cook: But that opens another question, because the accounts laid before the last Vestry were for only two or three years, and by the pamphlet that was published (in 1824) the amount was to liquidated in thirteen years, thereby shewing that money sufficient was provided for.
Mr.Legh: No,no; for if all the arrears had been collected there would still be a large balance due to Mrs. Jenks.
Mr. Cook: No; it appears not.
The Town Clerk said the question was, whether the Churchrates left in arrear were fitted to the scale of the pamphlet.
Mr. Legh : The we have only to set the arrears against the �3000 ?
Mr.Cook: No; here is a certain sum to be paid out of the rates each year, which was perfectly practicable, and I want to know why that was not done?
The Chairman said there were many extra expenses paid afterwards out of the mortgage money. The Churchwardens should have had a small rate for the current expenses of the church alone.
Mr.Adams (Churchwarden): I thought that a one and sixpenny rate was enough, and the longer it lasted the better - (laughter), for I did not want to inflict a heavy rate on the parish at once.
Chairman: You see we have got into a "hitch";" the Churchwardens have shown on one side the rates received for seven years, and on the other that the whole of the money has been expended.
Mr. Cook: That has nothing to do with the question.
Mr. Adams : There was between �400 and �500 expended for beautifying an extra head of the church.
Mr. Batcheldor observed that what Mr. Cook said was true, that so many rates had been raised to pay the mortgage on the church, and that the money had been paid for other purposes. The difficulty was, to show what had been so paid, and by what authority it was paid.
Mr. Cook: You have no authority to pay the money to any other purpose.
Mr. Adams: I wish you had told us when you passed the accounts three of four times that we were doing wrong, and then we should have known how to have done better.
Mr. Sharman observed, that during the existence of the mortgage, he had several times declared that the Churchwardens were wrong in their application of the proceeds of the rate to other purposes than to liquidate the debt, and he always wished
for a rate to be made in aid of liquidation. He had, however, always been laughed at, and answered,
"We can carry it on"
When he was elected Churchwarden before, he was in the same situation as he now was, viz; that he would have nothing to do with the Church rates.
The Chairman observed, that by the draft of the deed now before the Vestry, it appeared that Mrs. Jenks was satisfied with the security, and it was the best they could offer. She raised no objection, nor did her legal adviser.
Town Clerk: But the deed is drawn out on the supposition that the present Churchwardens were negotiating with her solicitor.
Mr. Barton: But the present Churchwardens refuse to recognise it.
Mr. Twinch (one of the present Churchwardens); We know nothing at all of it. I heard the correspondence at the last Vestry, which I was very much surprised to hear.
Mr. Sharman: Easter Monday is nigh at hand, and the better way will be to re-elect the old Churchwardens.
Town Clerk: That would not make it any better.
Mr. Burge (a Dissenter) said. It appeared the parish was in a dilemma, and he thought the Churchwardens had no control but upon one principle, and that was, the voluntary principle (laughter). A great deal had been
said against the voluntary principle, but he was a staunch advocate for it,; and if the Vestry would but once put that into practice, they would soon get out of their dilemma. He took it for granted that only one-eighth
of the inhabitants of Windsor were Dissenters; now three years ago they (the Dissenters) were �3000 in debt for the Chapel in William Street; they had already paid �2000 in two years, and now they owed �1000 - [hear]. If that
did not argue in favour of the voluntary principle, he did not know what did. He proposed that the �3000 be raised on the voluntary principle, which he thought could not be objected to by seven eighths of the inhabitants.
Mr.Batcheldor: Then we mortgage the voluntary principle (loud laughter)
Mr.Burge : That will be of no use to you, for you cannot mortgage anything now. I propose that some gentlemen should go around the parish , on the voluntary principle.
Mr. Ray (a Dissenter) said he should be most happy to give his mite; and he had no doubt they would get a large sum in that way [hear].
Mr. Astle (also a Dissenter) entirely concurred in what had fallen from Mr. Ray.
Chairman: A large sum of money was raised on the voluntary principle once before - I think �4000.
Mr. Batcheldor: I shall move, that at all events,the late Churchwardens shall not have the handling of the voluntary principle money - [loud laughter]
The Chairman said he feared that, by the voluntary principle they would not be able to raise the money.
Mr. Burge: But if it would only raise half or a third - You are in a dilemma, and the only way is to get out of it as best you can. See how far the voluntary principle has gone in regard to the Infants School.
Mr. Ray : If a Committee was formed, it would be of great service to the parish.
Mr. Wooldridge: See what noble sums of money have been raised among persons who came forward under the plan of the Bishop of London, for building churches - I believe about �100,000.
Chairman: I think above �120,000 . But I do not think this proposition will meet the thing, suppose we raise �400 or �500.
Town Clerk: But what will Mrs Jenks say in the mean time ?
Mr.Batcheldor: Perhaps if her solicitor finds the security shaken, he will put us all in Chancery.
Mr.Barton: And against all Churchwardens who handled the funds. I'm afraid the new Ministerial measure, if it passes, will not help us.
Town Clerk: But you should see what the measures will contain.
Chairman: Does it allude to all debts being paid out of the Poor-rates !
Mr.Barton : I apprehend only such debts as are properly secured at the time.
Mr.Sharman said the parish was placed in this situation, that unless the money was paid, proceedings would be taken. He did not know who would be proceeded against; but in all probability his own property would be attached.
The Chairman instanced a recent case, in which at Datchet a Churchwarden had been arrested a month ago, for debt of only �15. In the present instance Mrs. Jenks did not seem to throw any difficulties in the way. It was admitted she must have her money.
Mr Sharman said as two legal gentlemen were present he would propose another question, viz:- whether the rate made in December last could be applied for the purpose of the mortgage!
The Town Clerk said if that rate was in the mortgage it could.
Mr.Barton: You can collect that, and hand it over to Mrs.Jenks.
Mr.Legh: Surely the rate of 1838 was in the mortgage.
Mr. Adams: I always understood so, and that after that time all future Church rates should be made by the vestry.
Mr.Cook asked if the Committee (who were appointed at the last vestry) could say what the probably amount they would be able to collect of the arrears of about �700 ?
Mr. Batcheldor said about �150; but a gentleman then present could state what process they could institute to recover the money, because there was a difficulty, for a great many of the rates were due for 9 or 10 years.
Town Clerk: It is quite clear you cannot summon for them if the Churchwardens have misapplied the money they have received.
Mr.Batcheldor: I believe it is equally certain, that you cannot summon for arrears at all. You should make one rate every year, collect it, summon the defaulters, and then wind the rate up.
Mr.Adams: Of the last twelve persons I summoned for Church-rates, nine were let off, to pay at a future day, but they never paid at all, and I had to pay the expense of summonses [laughter].
Mr.Batcheldor : The arrears are recoverable , but in another way - by presenting them to the Archdeacon. The late Churchwardens are bound to lay before the present Churchwardens the list of defaulters, and they have nothing to do but to lay the list before the Archdeacon, for him "to do justice" according to the words of the act.
Chairman: That is a very expensive process. All business before the Archdeacon is expensive. You had better arrange the matter as well as you can.
Mr.Burge said it did not appear to him there was any plan more eligible than the one he had proposed.
Mr.Adams: That will not be of any use.
Mr.Barton on perusing the draft of the deed, here stated, that it appeared to have been contemplated that the rates which had been mortgaged might possibly not prove sufficient.
Chairman: Now then, what is the remedy, for that will be a great point to find out ! [laughter]
Mr.Barton read a portion of the deed which stated that if the rates then mortgaged should not be sufficient, additional rates, but without prejudice to a prior mortgage of �4000, should thereafter be made sufficient to meet the mortgage.
Mr. Cook: Ah! But that means within the thirteen years, and there was a sixpenny or shilling rate made for that purpose.
Mr.Batcheldor: I think if the rates had not been sufficient, you could go making them to pay off the mortgage.
Town Clerk: But you are not now in that situation. The rates have been sufficient to meet the mortgage.
Chairman : At all events I understand we are all agreed to do the best we can to meet the difficulty - [hear,hear]
Mr.Legh: If there is, as I hope, a cordial and kind feeling in the parish, the plan I suggest would be adopted,and that is, to make a rate for the payment of the debt.
Mr.Cook: But you cannot recover it.
Mr.Legh: I am not aware you cannot recover it.
Chairman: This Vestry is only called for the purpose of renewing the security, and if the Vestry is resolved on giving that security , why should they not have the power to do it?
Town Clerk: Because the mortgage was executed under an Act of Parliament; and it has run out and you cannot renew it. If you had received no money on the mortgage, you could renew it, but you have received the money, and that prevents your doing it again.
Mr.Barton : I perceive by the pamphlet that the expenses of the church are only �170 a year, towards which �112 was received from an independent source.
Mr.Burge again urged a resort to the voluntary principle, enforcing its adoption by reference to what had been collected under the plan of the Bishop of London for building churches - he believed about �100,000 . He thought that an application could be properly made that the present debt should be paid out of that fund - [laughter]
Chairman: That fund is only for building new churches.
Mr.Burge: Well, we may call ours a new church.
Mr. Sharman said they had better first ascertain if the parish had the means for securing the payment of the mortgage; if not, he trusted there were sufficient persons belonging to the church to come forward on its behalf - [hear].
If they could see their way clearly , they would mortgage the rates, and if they could not do that , they must consider it such a debt as Mrs. Jenks could proceed to recover, and therefore they must pay it.
Mr. Batcheldor: I think it is agreed on all hands that we are in a dilemma - [hear,hear]. The facts may be put into a narrow compass. There are two professional gentlemen present, and I propose that one of they be employed to take the opinion of some eminent civilian upon the subject - [hear,hear]
Chairman : We shall be no better that we are now.
Mr.Cook: I think we shall.
Mr.Batcheldor: But we cannot proceed now, for the moment we say that we cannot enter into the mortgage , Mrs.Jenks will proceed to recover her money. The expense of an opinion will be trifling compared with that course.
Chairman: It will only put off the evil day, for the opinion will be that we cannot make a rate.
Mr.Barton suggested it would be better to obtain an opinion.
Chairman: I think , if the rate were proposed, 99 out of every 100 of the inhabitants would willingly pay it.
Mr Cook : Oh! No , they would not.
Chairman: How will it be paid at last ?
The Town Clerk thought that the debt would be provided for in the Government measure, the same as other Church debts.
Mr.Batcheldor: But you won't have any of the Dean and Chapters property for this purpose - [laughter]
Town Clerk : Here is a legal debt, and also a legal security as it now stands. The only question is, whether this new deed would not invalidate it.
Mr.Barton : Is it a debt due from the Parish , or from the late Churchwardens ? I think from the late Churchwardens - [laughter]
Mr.Batcheldor again proposed that a legal opinion be taken.
Mr.Cook seconded the motion.
Mr.Adams: Had we not better postpone the Vestry, to see what the Government will do ?
Town Clerk : No, no.
The motion was then agreed to; and it was also agreed that a communication be made of the circumstances to Mrs. Jenk's Solicitor.